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Guest and Personality
Guest: Masashi Kimura from room6
Born in 1972, 50 years old. After graduating from a computer vocational school, he aimed for the game industry but couldn't get hired and became a business engineer. Inspired by the release of the iPhone in 2007, he wanted to develop for the iPhone and became independent in 2010. He realized that game development could also be done on the iPhone and started developing mobile games around 2013.
From around 2015, he exhibited at numerous domestic and international indie game events, and began developing console games for the Nintendo Switch around 2017. Through connections made with developers at events, he started an indie game publishing business in 2019. In 2020, he began operating the indie game label "Yokaze," which collects games that immerse players in different worlds.
Personality: Yuki Sakoda
After working at a telecommunications company and a general advertising agency, he founded an anime planning and production company, producing visuals for music videos and films. In 2021, he moved to Kyoto and began working to promote the entertainment industry there. Recently, he has also been involved in the manga and audio entertainment fields, currently planning and producing audio dramas and webtoons. Additionally, he serves as a producer and advisor for multiple entertainment companies.
Overall Table of Contents
#01
・Student days aiming for the game industry...
・Daily life as a business engineer
・The emergence of the iPhone and rekindled passion for games
・Daisuke Shiiba, who creates music for world for two
・The importance of music in indie games
・The significance of music, scenario, graphics, and game systems
#02
・Accelerating motivation for game development through various life events and becoming independent
・Participating in indie game events
・In an office with the charm of Demachiyanagi in Kyoto
・About games and monetization
・Nourishment received from anime during tough times
・The final push to make games interesting
・The importance of playtesters and the difficulty of judgment
#03
・While the media format for visuals is linear, games...
・Games with interactive elements are the epitome of complexity
・What room6 and the Yokaze label want to provide based on that
・Meeting Hako Seikatsu at a pixel art event
・Publisher business started in 2019
・Creating game works with the care of one's own child
・The development of Phantom AP progressed wonderfully through co-creation with creators
・The latest work is released when it is completed
#02 Begins
Accelerating motivation for game development through various life events and becoming independent
Sakoda
In Episode 1, Mr. Kimura talked about his career before starting his company. In the latter half, he discussed specific work related to music and indie games with Daisuke Shiiba. In Episode 2, I hope to continue discussing Mr. Kimura's career and also delve into the secrets of the world view of the works being created at room6.
By the way, I was curious about the 15 years Mr. Kimura spent working as a business engineer instead of entering the game industry. Did he create any games during that time...?
Kimura
During those 15 years, I was desperate to live and was really just working. There were life events like marriage and the birth of children, but I hardly had any time to play games. It felt like I completely forgot about them.
Sakoda
I think that the work from the early 20s to mid-30s often involves positions that require a broad perspective, such as design and planning. While taking on that responsibility, as family and household grow, I can only imagine since I am not married and have no children, but I think it must be very tough.
Kimura
Yes, it was tough.
Sakoda
It was tough, huh? But then you became independent, and your passion for games surged all at once, right?
Kimura
Yes, it felt like I remembered something I had completely forgotten. It was like a moment of realization.
Sakoda
Uh-huh. So, did it all start when you were inspired by the iPhone, and you suddenly thought, "This is a game!"? Was there a specific trigger? Did you play a particular title that you found really good?
Kimura
Well, I didn't play any other titles and think about them at all, but around 2015, I learned that there were game events and indie game events created for smartphones, and that was the trigger for me to start participating.
Sakoda
Did you participate as a customer?
Kimura
No, I was on the exhibiting side. I think the first one was the Tokyo Indie Game event held in Tokyo.
Accelerating motivation for game development through participation in indie game events
Kimura
I think it was around that time. Yes, there was a game event, and that was the trigger for us to participate. It was really fun. Seeing ordinary people, or those who had no idea who we were, play the game I created and share their thoughts was amazing. Also, media people come too, like from Famitsu. Yes, it felt like they were coming to cover us, and I thought, "This is a world I don't quite understand, but it's incredible." Well, I had lived in a world completely unrelated to that, so it was enjoyable. So, participating in that game event really got me hooked. That was quite a trigger for me.
Sakoda
I see. Oh, but that's interesting. It's not that there was a specific game that inspired you, but rather that you enjoyed seeing the faces of people who played your work at the event, which made you want to continue. That realization struck me.
Kimura
That's right. If it was just about making and selling games, I might not have continued for this long. I was a bit surprised to see so many people doing the same thing. It felt like I had discovered a world of comrades that I had no idea about.
Sakoda
It seems you started seriously making games around 2013, and when you exhibited at the event in 2015, you were surprised to see so many people enjoying your game. At that time, you also realized there were others making games like you, right?
Kimura
Yes, I was really shocked. Since then, I've been participating in every event I can. There’s a big indie game event called "Bit Summit" in Kyoto, and that event is really great. Since it's held locally, it motivated me to push forward with indie games.
Sakoda
Yeah, it's nice to have such a big event in your hometown. By the way, is the company you started at that time called room6?
In a charming office in Demachiyanagi, Kyoto
Kimura
That's right. Oh, originally it was a different company. In fact, I created a limited liability company called room6 to release the game brand and titles. This was because I didn't want my clients to know about it. I didn't want them to think I was "making games," so I started a different company. I intended to do it secretly.
Sakoda
So now you've consolidated everything into one.
Kimura
Yes, that's right. We merged and turned it into a company that focuses on room6 as our main business.
Sakoda
I see. So now it has become a company with a cool office in Demachiyanagi. By the way, when I say "cool," I mean it in the Kyoto sense, not in the general sense of the word.
No, I visited that person's house the other day, and I was surprised to see such modern architecture. It really felt cool in the summer, but I thought it would be cold in the winter.
Kimura
It is cold in winter. It's hot in midsummer too, but the hallway is cool. At first, we didn't have air conditioning, so we endured it, haha. I managed to survive until mid-August, but now it's impossible. It has become much hotter compared to about ten years ago. I feel like it was a bit cooler ten years ago.
About Games and Monetization
Kimura
Around that time, well, it's not exactly a failure story, but we originally had about five employees. However, the smartphone business and other operational work we were doing before didn't go well at all, and the company was on the verge of closing. At that time, a designer who joined the company with me was still young, so I couldn't just fire them suddenly. So, the two of us continued the business while participating in events. We had a period where we shrank down and focused solely on making games.
Sakoda
So, it was that you couldn't monetize from games, but you still wanted to create them, which led to a situation where cash flow was tight?
Kimura
That's right. We made them, but the games didn't sell at all. They really didn't make any money.
Sakoda
Kimura
No, this is really a story from this year or last year. Until then, it felt like we were in a super precarious situation, and I still wonder how we managed to survive.
Sakoda
Haha. I think the platforms have expanded quite a bit, and games have become available to buy from various places, which I believe is a recent development. I think that has also contributed to the increase in game sales.
Kimura
Yes, that's right. Regarding game monetization, there are issues with games not selling, and also the fact that making games costs a lot of money. The game itself is a business of upfront investment, but it's hard to know when the principal investment will be recouped, and it feels like we've been doing it that way all along.
Sakoda
I see. In the second half, I would like to ask about the company and the world view of the works that may finally be starting to stabilize, as well as the secrets that support the world view of room6 and the "Yokaze" label.
Nourishment from Anime During Tough Times
Sakuta
As we head into the second half, I would like to introduce a song, but in terms of episodes, it's about that, right? I think it will be a song that connects to that experience of failure.
Kimura
Yes, for the song, I would like to go with Riko Azuma's "Kimi ni Furete."
Sakuta
So, what you just heard was "Kimi ni Furete" by Riko Azuma. And it seems that Kimura-san has an episode related to this song.
Kimura
Yes, that's right. This song is the opening theme for the anime "Yagate Kimi ni Naru," which aired in the winter of 2018. By this time, it had been about three years since 2015, and I was struggling to stay in the game industry because games weren't selling. I was really trying to hold on, but things just weren't going well. I was involved in contract development for games and various jobs related to gaming. Fortunately, I was able to get various jobs.
Game development is inherently unstable, and even if you're doing contract work, it doesn't guarantee stability. There are many factors at play. If the product isn't good, there can be conflicts, and sometimes communication with clients doesn't go well. We were also trying to create our own games, but they weren't selling at all, and the contracts were hit or miss (laughs). At that time, I think we were pretty much at rock bottom.
I started watching anime during a period when I had sprained my ankle and was injured, and I couldn't go anywhere while on crutches during a business trip. I was bored, so I thought I would check out something interesting on Amazon Prime, which led me to start watching anime. Before that, I had been working really hard and hadn't had much time to watch anime, but I ended up getting really hooked on this anime. I became completely obsessed and watched the entire season about a hundred times (laughs).
Sakuta
But even though you're in a position to create anime, I think it's fascinating how anime can really resonate with you during those low points. Yeah. It's tough, and actively consuming media can be difficult. It's hard to read or play something yourself. But when something just flows in, that automatic media experience can be nourishing even during tough times, and I might have fallen into the rabbit hole of creating anime because of that (laughs).
Kimura
Yes, it really was nourishing. Without anime, I might have broken down. Truly.
The Final Push to Make Games Interesting
Sakuta
I see, but creating games isn't that easy, is it? As you mentioned earlier, even with contract work, it can be challenging, and if it's original work, you have to invest upfront without knowing if it will sell. So, you endure and create? You invest money to make it, and then what happens? You can only see that the dice have been cast. But it's not that stable, is it? Since I'm not involved, I can't really grasp the image of it.
Kimura
Yeah, that's right. It's not stable. I think contract game development can be stable if done properly, but I'm not really the serious type; I'm more of a laid-back person, so there were parts that didn't go well. If you don't do it properly, it won't work out.
Well, games are inherently very unstable, and the process of developing and completing them is unstable, so even in a contract company, it's not guaranteed that you can just keep making things every day. In that sense, it didn't go well.
Sakuta
I think anime is the same in that regard. When creating original anime, the flow is exactly the same. You never know who will watch it, and you don't know if it will make money, but if there are members who want to create and a work they want to make, they might just keep creating with whatever little money they have. Nowadays, there might be cases where the business model has changed, allowing for sales upfront, but initially, you never know if it will sell, so you can't create unless you have a strong will to do so. It's like a marathon; it's incredibly long. It's a long run.
I think you need that strong will to create, but there was something you said when we talked at a different time that really stuck with me. You mentioned that to make a good game, the last few percent—though I forgot the exact percentage—are crucial. Could you share that part of the conversation again?
Kimura
Ah, yes. Games, well, they often say the last mile is crucial, but it's not just one mile; it's really the very end. I truly believe that until about three days before the master up, the game isn't fun at all. I really think that until the very end, games don't become interesting. So everyone is left wondering how it will turn out. It feels like we're just imagining and creating endlessly. It's a mystery, but I guess everyone believes it will become interesting as they create it.
Sakuta
So, until three days before the upload, it feels like it's not interesting at all, but what do you cling to until the very end to make it interesting? What does that final push look like?
Kimura
I'm not sure. I think it's a small thing, but I believe that just a little adjustment can make the game much more interesting. Especially in the first ten minutes of the game. If even a small part changes, it can make players want to continue or be curious about what comes next. It's a very sensitive and delicate matter. I really put my all into those first ten minutes.
Sakuta
So, even when you reach the final line of production, it's really important to stick to making those first ten minutes as interesting as possible until the very end, right?
Kimura
That's right. Since there are many elements that rely on user input and necessary operations in games, the sensory aspects become important. Therefore, there may be parts that are difficult to understand. It might not be settled until the very end, but that's just how it is.
Sakuta
That’s true, when you’re doing playtesting yourself, you end up losing perspective because you’ve done it so many times, right?
Kimura
Yeah, right? It can get confusing (laughs)
The Importance of Test Players and the Difficulty of Judging
Sakoda
We have people who have never played it before try it out and give us feedback. Sometimes, even if we get feedback at the right timing, it might not be fixable, but if they say something is not fun, we have to address that, which is quite important, right?
Kimura
That's really common, but it's true. It becomes difficult to decide whether to trust that person's opinion, and there are various judgments involved, making direction challenging. Deciding which feedback to adopt is really tough.
Sakoda
Those discussions are really interesting. I mean, if someone is knowledgeable about the game, they might simulate it in their head and think, "Oh, I'm actually stuck here, but if I say it now, it might be a hassle." That kind of consideration can just pop up in their minds. So, getting feedback from regular consumers is probably the closest to the truth and the voice of the customers. However, from the creators' perspective, sometimes that customer feedback can be harsh. There are things that can’t be undone.
Kimura
Yeah, that's true. In fact, the test players might not even be the type of people we want to reach, so we need to consider that carefully. The judgment there is difficult. There are infinite types of people, so in the end, we might have to rely on intuition and feeling. There might be some truth to that. Larger game companies that handle this well might have methodologies for it, but since we are a small company, we often just go for it in the end.