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The Background of Wanting to Create Independent Anime

Sakoda

This is a brief recap, but in Episode 1, I introduced the two from Asobizukuri and discussed their meeting, while moving towards the fact that they are currently creating independent anime. During that, I heard that in their first project, Mr. Yamamoto and Mr. Shimoda had difficulty agreeing on the length of the work and how to approach the timing.

The discussion about length and timing only comes up when you are conscious of "video," but once it becomes anime or video, you suddenly have to talk about "the length of the timing" and "what you want to convey" along a timeline. In this context, what I want to ask in Episode 2 is about their new independent anime project titled 'Junk Town' (tentative). I would like to hear casually about why they chose the expression of independent anime, why they are doing this now, and what they want to do moving forward. How does that sound?

Yamamoto

As for why we chose independent anime, it wasn't a deliberate start. Shimoda saw a drawing I posted on my LINE timeline, which was a picture of children playing in a secret base, and suggested, "Let's draw an improved version of this together in the park."

So, I tried to draw, but I couldn't, and then Shimoda said, "Let's play pretend and create a secret base at Inokashira Park." We started doing various things to create a secret base, and then Shimoda said, "We should turn this into an anime," and that's how we started. It was more of a coincidence than a reason that led to this flow.

As the project began, I started to think about the logic behind the value of doing independent anime and the strategic aspects of working hard on it, and gradually, meanings beyond coincidence started to pile up regarding creating independent anime.

Sakoda

So, did you actually sit side by side in the park drawing together?

Yamamoto

Ah, that's right.

Sakoda

I thought that scene was incredibly heartwarming. But that's where it all begins, right? Like, "This is interesting." Since we're looking at each other next to each other, it becomes like, "Oh, that picture is nice," doesn't it?

What I wanted to ask was, in reality, a picture is just a single still image of creativity, right? I think there needs to be quite a reason to want to turn that into animation. Animated visuals create a timeline by weaving together continuous images, and that's where the story is born. Well, there's also the aspect of adding music or voice, which is another vector, but animation is a medium that can incorporate those elements, so while it can expand in many ways, it also increases the things you have to think about at the same time.

I think there are many emotional reasons for both of you to jump into creating this animation at this timing, as well as many rational reasons, but I wanted to hear about that blend of emotion and reason.

Yamamoto

When we were doing "Secret Base DIY," I was drawing a picture of a secret base on the ground with branches, well, more like a floor plan. That secret base was shaped like an animal and kind of went underground. After having fun creating the secret base, it became clear that I couldn't condense that into a single image. To express the charm of the secret base, it needed to be an animation that could show various angles, sounds, and the atmosphere, and that's when Shimoda started saying that, and I was just thrilled to jump on board.

Sakoda

I see. What was Shimoda's feeling at that time about wanting to do that?

Shimoda

While drawing, the image started to expand, or rather, various rooms were being created, and evil places were emerging. As Akihiro said, trying to fit that into a single picture was quite difficult. And since Akihiro was also doing animation at that time, I thought, "Maybe we can show it in animation." When I usually draw, I don't draw everything, but I do try to depict parts that aren't usually shown. So, I decide on a composition for one spot, but I had the feeling that "if it's animation, can't we show everything?" and I think that's when I made the suggestion.

Yamamoto

There wasn't a grand reason when we started.

Sakoda

By the way, how many years ago was that timing?

Yamamoto

About six years ago?

Sakoda

It feels like you've been running since six years ago. How do you feel about choosing animation?

Shimoda

Choosing animation, there were many parts I was really not good at, and through working together like this, I realized, "Oh, this is my ability," and I noticed various frictions and things like that. But I think no matter what you choose, there are probably fun things and tough things, so I feel like I'm having fun with the current situation, and that's my honest impression that I'm glad we did it. How about you, Akihiro?

Yamamoto

I don't really have much of an impression, or rather, I don't have a philosophy about visual expression, and I think I face visuals more on an intuitive level, like "I can express more than just a single picture."

Also, when it comes to drawing, I feel stress when I have to draw the same kind of picture repeatedly, but Shimoda seems to enjoy that process without any stress at all, so I think the cost of animation production itself isn't that high. It's not that there isn't a cost, but there are no regrets.

Sakoda

At least for five or six years, if you can continue, I think it wouldn't last that long if you had members that didn't fit or were dealing with themes you didn't want to tackle. By the way, I've been working on a project since around 2017, and it's almost finished, but what I've realized while producing a feature-length animation is that the director or central figure who wants to work on that project must love it so much that they feel, "I absolutely want to dedicate my life to this," and unless they're in a state where there's no struggle in doing it, it wouldn't last five or six years. And it definitely wouldn't last with someone you absolutely dislike, so I think our needs matched well.

For example, Yamamoto wanted to create a world view in animation, but he felt that endlessly drawing the same pictures at an animation company was impossible for him. Shimoda might not have aimed for animation, but perhaps he was looking for a way to create with like-minded companions who could empathize with what he wanted to express. In that context, while it was tough for Yamamoto to draw a lot, it wasn't a burden for Shimoda, and they both shared themes like summer memories and childhood dreams, which led them to start this project. The fact that it has continued for five or six years suggests that their needs fit together very well.

By the way, thinking back to five or six years ago, what kind of movement were you both observing in the indie animation scene at that time?

Yamamoto

What was it, "Fumiko's Confession," right?

Sakoda

Yeah, by Yuuya Ishida.

Yamamoto

When I was in high school, I searched for animation production on YouTube and thought, "Wow, that's amazing." At that time, there wasn't the excitement we see now. It was more like, "Well, it's something students make, right?"

Shimoda

Right, sometimes you'd see something made by art university students as their graduation project uploaded on YouTube, that kind of thing.

Yamamoto

It felt like there were just a few graduation projects from animation departments.

Sakoda

That's right, five or six years ago, things made by art university students were being uploaded, and there were platforms like ICAF, a student animation film festival, where they would showcase their work as a grand finale. But now, individuals are working on music videos and gathering through hashtags, and it's really been revitalized in the last few years, hasn't it?

Five or six years ago, it wasn't a time when indie animation as a visual output was booming, but for the two of you, it became clear that this was animation, that it was indie animation, and that timing was a bit ahead of its time.

Yamamoto

That's right. After trying to make animation in the industry, I felt that sitting at the same work desk every day was constricting. Also, the animation industry has fixed frames regarding salary and working conditions, and I dabbled a bit in production management, but seeing various aspects made me feel that there was no need to create specifically in the animation industry. Nowadays, you can release animations on social media, and with events like Comiket, monetization can be done on an individual basis.

Well, even without creating something like a production committee, it might be possible to make anime on an individual basis and aim for monetization. However, it does require incredible horsepower or talent, but since we have Shimoda's talent, I think we’ll be fine. Various parts fit together, and with that, we decided to take on the challenge of making independent anime. Also, YouTubers were starting to become popular, or rather, they had already established their status, so originally, there were comedians and various talents in TV stations, and they transitioned into becoming YouTubers...

About six years ago, independent anime was being presented, but in the end, most of those talented individuals entered the anime industry and then became unreachable, gradually blending into the industry until they became unrecognizable. They might be thriving, of course. It feels like it’s not just a calling card project, but rather, in a sense, we’re in an era where we can directly engage in in-house production rather than just independent production. Furthermore, at that time, the working conditions in the anime industry were being criticized for being black, and explaining that would take a long time. It feels like the anime industry is a low-risk, low-return field.

Shimoda

Is it about working as an animator at an anime company?

Yamamoto

Even if you gather money through the production committee method to make anime, you don’t hold the rights, and it might not be that everyone is getting rich from it, especially when compared to other industries. I don’t fully understand the production committee method, but basically, entertainment sells if it hits, and if it doesn’t, it doesn’t sell, so it’s high-risk, high-return. If one company handles everything, there’s a risk that the company could go under if that one project fails. To distribute that risk and make it low-risk, everyone contributes through a production committee, and anime companies receive production costs through that method, which allows the company to continue regardless of whether it’s a hit or not.

However, since the production costs are low and the production schedule is tight, it is low-risk, low-return, but when viewed in the long term, for example, when you become a grandfather, it seems really tough. If you’re a hardcore craftsman, you might feel happy with that kind of life, but I wasn’t that hardcore, so while I could have been reckless for about a month, thinking about continuing this for decades makes me feel like I can’t do it. I’ve forgotten the context from where this started.

It’s low-risk, low-return, but actually, when viewed in the long term, it might be high-risk in terms of life. I think being deeply immersed in such a field is high-risk, and if that’s the case, wouldn’t it be better to engage in a more straightforward high-risk, high-return approach with in-house production? Additionally, at that time, there wasn’t much enthusiasm for independent production, but when I opened Twitter, there were discussions about the anime industry’s black issues, with calls to “change the upper management!” However, in my view, changing the industry structure isn’t just an issue for the upper management; it’s a problem that encompasses everyone working in the industry, from top to bottom. That’s why it’s difficult to change, but if we can make a living outside the industry without changing it, it might lead to the existing bad parts being eliminated, which could ultimately contribute to changing the industry.

Furthermore, from a business perspective, it might be possible to utilize this for positioning. The new independent anime industry is likely to thrive in the future, and positioning ourselves as pioneers in that field could be beneficial. All of this is interconnected, and I’ve lost track of where it all lands, but I was thinking about such things while doing it.

Sakoda

I think it’s a trivial trigger, but I felt a lot from Yamamoto-san’s experiences in the anime industry, which he has been close to, and it’s very clear that it’s naturally expressed. I didn’t enter the anime industry, but I observed from the outside, and when I started making anime, I had similar thoughts, so I listened with a strong sense of understanding. It’s not just about wanting to improve one work; it’s about looking at the entire industry layer and considering what happiness and unhappiness are over the long span of a person’s life. There’s a clear divide between those who think about these things and those who don’t.

This isn’t necessarily a good or bad discussion, but you can live your life without abandoning the act of thinking, right? In that moment, craftsmen might focus on one thing without considering various possibilities. I think I tend to want to think about various things and want to judge by looking at different perspectives, and I often find myself in a state of constant contemplation. I have a personality that can’t help but think, and perhaps Yamamoto-san also thought about many things, and there might have been seniors who said, “It’s pointless to think about that,” but I could really understand that he thought carefully and executed various things while feeling, “No, that’s not right.”

In the second half, I’d like to pass the baton with a song; do you have a song in mind?

Shimoda

Can I go first? Please play “Easy Breezy” by chelmico.

The Balance Achieved by Shimoda's Sketches

Sakoda

Yes, what you just heard was “Easy Breezy” by chelmico. Do you have any episodes related to this song?

Shimoda

It’s not an episode about the song itself, but during the time when I was saying, “I’m going to make independent anime,” I found a manga called “Don’t Toy with Me, Miss Nagatoro,” which is about people like us actually making independent animation. Reading it really fired me up, so that’s why I chose this song.

Sakoda

That’s great. “Don’t Toy with Me, Miss Nagatoro” really resonates with those who create their own original works, as it feels like they’re making something they love. If I could briefly interject my own story, I started a project called “Kurayukaba” under director Shigeyoshi Tsukahara around 2017, initially involving crowdfunding. By the way, earlier, when Shimoda-san was talking about the motif of diving deeper into a cave, that’s exactly what “Kurayukaba” was about. At first, Tsukahara-san was drawing the setting materials, and it had an incredible amount of energy, so we thought, “We don’t know how it will turn out, but let’s give it a try,” and that’s how it started.

In the midst of all this, we were initially making various small movements, like creating a promotional video and gradually increasing the setting materials, while simultaneously launching a crowdfunding campaign. Around the timing of that crowdfunding launch, we held a small event before and after. At that time, Sumito Ōdō from the Animation Research Club also came as a guest, and it seems that Ōdō had originally been watching Tsukahara's works.

Shimoda

There’s a connection...

Sakoda

Exactly, I feel there’s definitely a connection there, and I can really sense the same kind of spirit underlying the works of the two creators from Asobizukuri. Returning to what Yamamoto-san talked about in the first half, everything that was discussed seems to be interconnected. If we extract a few excerpts from the writings on Asobizukuri's pixivFANBOX, Yamamoto-san mentioned that when looking at the working environment of creators, including producers and production assistants in the anime industry over a long-term span, it seems to be a high-risk, low-return situation. There’s also a desire to correct that and to suggest that there are different ways of working, which is something that was written about, and it really came through that there isn’t just one way to create.

Just like Yūyasu Ishida back then, there are individuals creating amazing things, and when you think about it, “Why can’t this be done outside of a studio?” it turns out that it might not necessarily need to be done in a studio. In fact, having run a studio myself and having created longer works, I understand both what can only be done in a studio and the greatness of studios, so it’s not about which is better or worse. However, with the proliferation of digital tools and the increase in places to publish as platforms, there are various possibilities, and I think it’s perfectly fine to approach and challenge those possibilities.

While taking on challenges, the topic of monetization that came up along the way might not have been imagined at first, but by releasing a sketchbook, it has become a source of revenue to some extent, serving as an engine to sustain our activities. So, it’s like, precisely because we are small-scale and not under pressure from anyone, we are able to create what we love at our own pace, and we are already realizing the idea of using revenue sources outside of anime to create anime, which gives a strong sense of consistency in what we are doing.

Yamamoto

Yeah, that’s about right.

Sakoda

What I want to dig into for a moment here is the part written on Pixiv about “challenging whether we can compensate for the low rotation rate, which is a weakness of small-scale production, by turning the production process into content.” I think that’s exactly what it is, and it seems like the process of production and the byproducts that spill out during production are being published in book form. I think there are quite a few creators who would like to hear about this sketchbook, so I’d like to ask what you can share about the experience of putting out a book.

Shimoda

Right. It’s not that we’re putting together what we gained from self-produced animation into a book, but I’ve been sketching a lot, and it feels like the know-how of sketching and drawing has flowed into the book. I’m not sure how to put it into words... but it was really great.

Yamamoto

Yeah. Simply put, when it comes to making money, you need to have some kind of product or service. And turning animation into a product is quite challenging, and you need to prepare funds for that. In that sense, the sketchbook fit perfectly, or rather, it became something we were grateful for. At that time, I didn’t even have an iPad, and even when I decided to make animation, I had to get a tracing board from a flea market, riding the train to receive it from someone I didn’t know, and I gathered various types of paper to somehow create it analogously.

However, creating it analogously takes a lot of time and is tough, so I thought I needed to buy an iPad. But at that time, Shimoda was working at Yamazaki Baking, and I was working part-time, and I wasn’t even working that much, so I couldn’t afford to buy an iPad while living my life. So, I thought about how to buy an iPad Pro. The first sketchbook I released wasn’t made with high production costs; I gathered my sketches tightly, and since crowdfunding would incur fees, I collected printing costs online and gathered funds directly through Twitter and DMs via bank transfers to create one book, earning just enough money to get the iPad. That’s how the overall flow of activities supported everything.

Self-produced animation is not something that can easily be released into the world, so if you stay cooped up, you can lose connection with society and the outside world. But with Shimoda Sketch, there are people who buy the book, allowing us to participate in the economy, and it has become a function that balances our activities, helping us maintain connections with others. So, in that sense, it was really good to do.

Shimoda

Yeah, that’s true.

Sakoda

Indeed, one of the issues that comes with choosing animation as a form of expression is that the products we create can’t stand in the batter’s box overwhelmingly. I love baseball, so I often use the term “batter’s box,” but in film, it feels like you get a chance every four or five years. Of course, since it’s a film, it’s not a chance everyone can take, so if you hit a home run here, it might score high, but still, “one chance in five years is tough.”

In that context, with a shift in perspective, there are many things that arise in the process of creating visuals, and if we can transform those into products that manifest in the world, we can stand in the batter’s box many times. In that regard, Yamamoto-san and Shimoda-san, even when creating anime, sketch a lot, so they thought about compiling and selling that, and it turned out to be a good idea.

This is definitely a huge success story, and I think it’s a really good technique. However, one point to note is that because we are creating original works, the scope of what we can do freely is virtually limitless. When collaborating with someone, meaning with some kind of capital, it’s best if that capital doesn’t impose restrictions, but that’s not always the case. The loss of that freedom might be something Yamamoto-san felt faintly during his time in the anime industry.

I’d like to ask more details in the next episode.

#03 continues