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Guest and Host
Guest: Miku Mizue
Animation Creator
Born in 1981 in Fukuoka Prefecture. An animation creator who produces non-narrative expressions inspired by "cells" and "geometric shapes." Known for her unique abstract animations that captivate viewers, she works extensively in independent animation and music videos.
She has been nominated at all four major animation film festivals (Annecy, Ottawa, Hiroshima, Zagreb), and her representative work 'MODERN No.2' had its world premiere at the Venice International Film Festival and won a music award at the Annecy International Animation Film Festival.
'WONDER' premiered at the Berlin International Film Festival and won the CANAL+ Creative Aid Award at the Annecy International Animation Film Festival. She is currently preparing for her first feature-length animation 'Mizue's Journey (tentative title)'.
Host: Yuki Sakoda
After working at a telecommunications company and a general advertising agency, he founded an animation planning and production company, producing visuals for music videos and films. In 2021, he moved to Kyoto and began working to promote the entertainment industry there. Recently, he has also been involved in the manga and audio entertainment fields, currently planning and producing audio dramas and webtoons. Additionally, he serves as a producer and advisor for several entertainment companies.
Table of Contents
#01
・What is non-narrative expression in animation?
・Her work was screened in the non-narrative category at film festivals
・Interpretation of works that do not have a "story" but do not place "story" as the pillar of the work
・Continuing to create what she loves without worrying about genres
・Falling hurts, but soft things feel good
・From Jurassic Park and Terminator to the Lumière brothers
・Movies are not just about stories but also about moments of experience
・Loving unforgettable experiences scattered throughout films
・A summer day, directing a monster movie play imitating a chemical plant in a vinyl pool
・Memories of watching Return of the Jedi in theaters
・Growing up with parents who love movies
・Waiting in line to see The Phantom Menace in high school
・Longing for the analog experience of theater spaces
・The shock of seeing T-1000
・Wanting to see the unusual and the strange
・From an interview with ETERNITY
・Creating something experimental and strange within a short duration
・A ride-type creation to make something that doesn't let you sleep for 20 minutes in a non-narrative way
・Realizing you were in the theater when the movie ended
・A night of biking wildly after watching E.T.
#02
・Watching subjective images on a large flat screen becomes VR
・The pleasure of visuals in "Spider-Verse"
・The value of non-verbal communication
・The ambiguity when communicating with words
・Words from a woman who saw "WONDER" in Germany
・Non-verbal communication may have the power to make viewers think spontaneously
・Not good at surveys
・Talking about "Fraggle Rock"
・About "Mizue's Journey (tentative title)"
・What it means to do Journey to the West now
・How humans live and how they perceive the world
#03
・About "License of Love"
・Introducing many characters
・The theme of expanding life and death
・From a science book I read as a child
・About the song by Twoth
・Also creating a song for Into Animation 8
・About the program for Into Animation 8
・Animation is becoming a more interesting era
・Animation is starting to cross over, chaotic but stimulating
#01 Begins
What is non-narrative expression in animation?
Sakoda
Mizue-san is an animation creator I have been observing unilaterally for a long time, and she shines brightly and stands out. I have always wanted to talk to her, and I am grateful that it has come true today. Now, I would like to read the profile provided by Mizue-san and ask her some questions about the points that interest me.
Miku Mizue is an animation creator born in 1981 in Fukuoka Prefecture, producing non-narrative expressions inspired by cells and geometric patterns. She is known for her unique abstract animations that captivate viewers and works extensively in independent animation and music videos. I have a question that I find quite interesting in my interpretation: while I understand that cells and geometric patterns are motifs in Mizue-san's work, the term "non-narrative expression" is frequently used. I would like to ask Mizue-san about her interpretation of this term.
The reason is that, in my own video production, I have recently been using the terms linear and narrative often. I interpret linear as a model where the creator presents one answer, including the development, for the audience to see, while narrative involves providing options for the viewer to choose and weave the story together. This narrative is often discussed in games, where various multi-endings are presented. I believe the terms narrative and non-narrative used here are applied differently in the animation and film festival categories, and I would like to hear Mizue-san's insights and interpretations on this matter.
Miku Mizue
Yes, I think "non-narrative" is a term that may be unfamiliar to many. My works are often referred to as abstract animation or experimental animation. There are indeed many experimental and abstract works, but when I went to film festivals, I encountered the category of "non-narrative," where my works were screened, and that was the first time I came across the term "non-narrative." If translated directly into Japanese, it means "non-story." When looking at the works screened, even though they are called non-narrative, there are various pieces, including experimental works, graphic developments, and those that evoke a sense of narrative. I interpret it as not that there is no story at all, but rather that the story is not the main focus.
I believe a story involves characters and the unfolding of drama, but there are various ways to perceive a story that are not necessarily limited to that. I think non-narrative encompasses those aspects. It could be seen as a different angle of storytelling. I feel like my explanation has made it more complicated (laughs).
Sakoda
Yes, I thought it was quite good and interesting that Mizue-san articulated his interpretation. In that context, I noticed that Mizue-san submitted his work to a film festival, and the festival categorized it as non-narrative. Upon seeing that, Mizue-san realized, "Oh, my work belongs to the non-narrative genre," right?
Mizue Mirai
Yes, that's right. I think I wasn't very aware of it until I submitted it.
Sakoda
The act of categorizing or dividing into sections is, in a way, an expression of the values defined by society, and it’s one way to fit things into those categories. In that context, it was quite refreshing to see how Mizue-san's work was categorized by some authority or perspective rather than him categorizing it himself. He learned about narrative and non-narrative from that experience, which was quite new to me. It felt like he had this academic mindset of "I will work in the non-narrative genre from the start!"
Mizue Mirai
Yes, that's right. So, when I first started doing animation, I was creating animations of microorganisms moving around, but I didn't think of it as experimental or abstract work. I just thought it was interesting and fun to make it move. So when the first piece I created was labeled as "abstract animation," I was like, "What does that mean?"
So later on, I realized that what I was creating had roots in the works of experimental artists from the past. It wasn't that I gradually developed into this style; I had been working in this style from the beginning. I had no idea what my position was at all.
Sakoda
That's true. It's not about trying to fit oneself into a genre that exists in the world; rather, it was about creating what I wanted to create without any awareness of that. And later, it was labeled as non-narrative, abstract, or experimental.
What I found interesting is that while watching Mizue-san's work, I thought this expression might be categorized as abstract or experimental, but it feels incredibly narrative to me. Plus, I feel a bit embarrassed to say this, but I thought it might be something that Miyazaki Hayao wanted to achieve.
Mizue Mirai
That's a bit overwhelming to hear (laughs).
Sakoda
It's just one perspective (laughs). I think stories, of course, are more familiar to modern people when they follow a structured format like thesis-antithesis-synthesis, but I believe stories can be quite multifaceted, seen from different perspectives, and can be like a multiverse. The way different viewers perceive the narrative can be very diverse.
In a primitive sense, things like falling and it hurting, or touching something soft and it feeling good, I think Miyazaki-san depicted those experiences in animation. Expressing something soft very softly, or showing that falling on something hard can cause injury, or that falling from a high place can lead to injury. When I watch Mizue-san's animations, I feel that they can look incredibly soft or incredibly hard. I personally felt a narrative in that aspect. So, I wonder if Mizue-san is someone who loves stories.
Jurassic Park, Terminator, and the Lumière Brothers
Mizue Mirai
I do love stories. I also love watching movies. Originally, I was really into sci-fi and fantasy films, but I didn't watch much animation. I was more into sci-fi films. For example, I saw "Jurassic Park" in theaters, and I also watched "Terminator 2" when I was in early elementary school. I didn't go on my own; my father took me.
"Terminator 2" was shocking. I was on the edge of my seat watching T-1000 relentlessly chase after them. The scene in "Jurassic Park" where the T-Rex chases the jeep was also breathtaking. Later, when I studied film, I learned about the Lumière brothers who invented film, and how audiences back then were shocked when a train arrived at the station, feeling like it was going to crash into them and running away. I realized I had experienced something similar! I was also taken aback when I saw "Jurassic Park" in theaters (laughs).
So, movies always provide a sense of visual surprise, right? It's not just about the story. Each moment and scene becomes an unforgettable experience. So, while I might love stories, I also really enjoy those unforgettable experiences embedded in films. I think that's something I want to incorporate into my own work. That's probably the style I'm working with.
Sakoda
Ah, I believe that unforgettable experience or moment from when you were in early elementary school is etched in your memory as a foundational experience. Do you still find elements from those moments reflected in what you create now?
Mizue Mirai
Yes, I think so. When I reflect on what serves as the foundation for the ideas in my work, it seems to be largely determined by what I watched during my childhood, elementary, and middle school years, or even my teenage years. What I watched after entering university feels more like a follow-up.
Sakoda
So, the "Jurassic Park" and "Terminator" you mentioned are live-action films, right? Did you predominantly watch live-action films?
Mizue Mirai
Yes, I watched quite a bit of live-action. Of course, I also went to see "Doraemon" and "Godzilla." "Godzilla" is live-action, after all. I was often taken to the movies. I also saw "My Neighbor Totoro" in theaters when I was in first grade.
Sakoda
Ah, that's early! So you got to see "My Neighbor Totoro" in theaters.
Mizue Mirai
After watching "My Neighbor Totoro," "Grave of the Fireflies" played, and I experienced that traumatic event in my childhood. That was my generation.
Sakoda
Wow, that's amazing. I really want to hear about that experience. I was part of the group that first saw it on TV during Friday Roadshow, so I'm curious about what that theater experience was like.
Mizue Mirai
Yeah. They used to alternate screenings back then.
Sakoda
But when I think about it, the experience I had in the movie theater as a foundational experience definitely connects to where I am now. However, it’s not like I was just watching anime; I was drawn to works that had a certain narrative quality, including both live-action and animation. I think there are many works that have a moment of impact or surprise, like when I watched 'Jurassic Park' or 'Terminator.' Was there a moment when you started to think, "I want to be on the side of the people creating this kind of work"?
Mizue Mirai
Well, as a child, I thought about wanting to be a painter or a designer, but I wasn't sure about being a film director. However, when I was in elementary school, I would set up a vinyl pool in the yard, and my younger brother and friends would come over to play in the pool. That’s when we would start playing monster games, like battles between Ultraman and monsters, where one person would become Ultraman and fight. With the vinyl pool, I would imagine it as a combination of a factory and a battleground. I would envision a monster emerging from the sea and I would act like a director, saying things like, "Come out from here and fight, and Ultraman is in a pinch." I wasn't actually filming anything, but I was doing some kind of direction, so I think I had an interest in creating visuals from a young age.
Sakoda
So naturally, your friends became actors, becoming Godzilla, while you took on the role of director. That’s a really interesting foundational experience. Was that in the early years of elementary school?
Mizue Mirai
In elementary school, I was around 4 or 5 years old at that time.
Sakoda
So, chronologically, you were taken to the movie theater and were trying to recreate the excitement of what you saw in the vinyl pool and factory setting, right?
Mizue Mirai
Yes, I think it was around the same time. At that time, the Heisei series of 'Godzilla' was being released, like 'Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah' and 'Godzilla vs. Mothra.' So, every New Year, it was the era when we would go see 'Godzilla.' When we went to see 'Godzilla,' the next theater would be showing 'Tora-san,' and it was that kind of time. Every time we went to see 'Godzilla,' there would be a poster for 'Tora-san' up. So while watching 'Godzilla,' I was also seeing the Hollywood films like 'Jurassic Park' and 'Terminator,' where CGI was coming in, and the direction was becoming more dynamic and realistic.
Sakoda
Your story paints a vivid picture of the landscape from the Showa to early Heisei era. It’s really fascinating. I can see how that foundational experience has allowed you to continue being involved in creation today, which makes for an interesting first half of our conversation.
As we move into the second half, I’d like to play a song. You spent your elementary school years and continued going to the movies in middle and high school, so I assume the song you want to introduce is something that left a strong impression on you during that time. What song would you like to share?
Mizue Mirai
Yes. I’d like to share the song "Ewok Celebration and Finale" from 'Star Wars: Return of the Jedi,' which at the time was titled 'Return of the Jedi.'
Memories of Watching Return of the Jedi in Theaters
Sakoda
What you just heard is "Ewok Celebration and Finale" from 'Star Wars: Return of the Jedi.' Mizue-san, I imagine there are many rich stories associated with this song.
Mizue Mirai
Yes. So, 'Return of the Jedi' was originally titled 'Return of the Jedi' before its release in Japan. It’s a film from 1983, and I was born in 1981, so I was just two years old at the time. My parents went to the theater to see it, bringing me along. However, I would cry in the theater, so my father would go in first, and my mother would wait outside holding me. When my father finished watching and came out, they would switch, and my mother would go in for the next showing. I later heard this from my parents, so I wasn’t actually in the theater during the screening. But I believe the first movie theater I ever went to as a baby was to see 'Return of the Jedi' with my parents.
As you can see from this story, my parents were huge fans of 'Star Wars.' We had a VHS tape at home. It was a dubbed version, likely copied from a laserdisc, as it had chapter markings. At that time, the Japanese subtitles were written in a way where "The Force" was translated as "理力" (Riki), and "Lightsaber" was "電光剣" (Denko Ken). I watched that VHS countless times during my childhood, which made me really love 'Star Wars.'
However, the original release was before I was born or when I was just a baby, so about ten or so years later, they announced a new 'Star Wars' film, 'Episode I: The Phantom Menace.' I was in my third year of high school at the time, and I was so excited that I could finally see 'Star Wars' in theaters. I lined up the day before at the Marunouchi Toei Theater, which was the biggest cinema in Japan. I went with friends from art prep school, and we started lining up around 10 PM the night before. By then, there were already about 400 people in line, and I think the theater could hold around 2000 people.
We waited all night and watched the first morning screening. I remember the excitement of being in the theater, with so many people in cosplay, creating a festive atmosphere. As I watched, I started to think, "Isn’t this a bit different from what I expected?" But the thrill of finally being able to see 'Star Wars' again was overwhelming. When the end credits music started, I was so excited that I went back to see it about five more times, all by myself. What I find fascinating about 'Star Wars' is that I really love the moment when the end credits roll, especially with the song you just heard, which is from Episode VI, the final film. It’s the moment when the battle against the Empire comes to a conclusion, and everyone is celebrating together, which really lifts my spirits. It’s a song I absolutely love.
Sakoda
Well, to connect with what was mentioned earlier about the prevalence of SF and fantasy, I feel that this is quite a source of inspiration. There’s a certain SF vibe that lingers in Mizue-san's film works, almost like a motif. In those moments of joy, especially towards the end, there’s a similar feeling to what you see in 'One Piece', where everyone celebrates after defeating evil! It’s like a reward for the viewers. I sense that kind of emotional resonance in Mizue-san's works. I’m not sure if it’s something he consciously thinks about, but I had a thought that there’s a connection there.
Now, this might seem like a sudden shift in topic, but Mizue-san has been nominated at all four major animation film festivals in the world: Annecy, Ottawa, Hiroshima, and Zagreb. One of his representative works, 'MODERN No 2', had its world premiere at the Venice International Film Festival and won a music award at the Annecy International Animation Film Festival. From childhood and even now, he’s active in physical spaces like cinemas and film festivals. Although Mizue-san creates works digitally, I wonder if there’s a strong longing for analog in his approach. I’d love to hear his thoughts on the current digital landscape and the analog space of cinemas.
Mizue Mirai
Well, regarding techniques, I wouldn’t say I’m an analog supremacist. For instance, I was really excited by the T-1000 in 'Terminator 2'. That liquid metal T-1000…
Sakoda
Ah, yes, that expression.
Mizue Mirai
Exactly. I want to see that scene where the T-1000 shows its metal morphing. My initial interest in analog animation stemmed from that very unique feeling it evokes. Even in the 90s SF films where CG expressions were prominent, there was something intriguingly different that caught my attention. I think I felt something similar when I first watched 'Toy Story'. It was a strange kind of animation. Having only seen 2D animation, the 3D CG feature-length animation felt a bit odd to me.
Now, 3D CG expressions have become so realistic that it’s hard to tell where CG is used, making that sense of strangeness less perceptible. However, when I saw analog animation, like stop-motion in 'Star Wars', I thought, “What is this?” That sense of strangeness was prevalent in many short animations, which piqued my interest. So, my motivation to start creating came from those analog techniques used in short animations. It’s not that I dislike CG; I actually love anything that feels unique.
Sakoda
Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting that 'Toy Story' was probably released in 1995, and I assume Mizue-san saw it in theaters. Just like 'Terminator', during that era, creating something with CG was a selling point for films. Especially with 'Toy Story', the challenge of making animation with CG was a significant investment. So, I guess Mizue-san was more drawn to the strangeness and oddity that emerged when something traditionally made in analog was created in CG, rather than the story itself.
Also, I watched a YouTube interview where Mizue-san talked about 'ETERNTY', and I felt he discussed the technical aspects quite a bit, mentioning tools like TouchDesigner and Unity. It seems he’s always using various tools of the time to pursue that sense of strangeness, which connects with my thoughts. Perhaps the keywords are “strange” and “odd”?
Mizue Mirai
Yes, that’s right. I really want to see strange things. There’s a certain happiness in being able to see something strange. It’s a kind of joy in watching visuals. It might be close to pleasure.
Sakoda
But indeed, it’s about diversity. There might be a society where only one value exists, saying this is wonderful, but a diverse society that allows for various oddities is definitely richer. I think there’s a lot to discuss around that.
In short films, there’s a movement that has persisted from the past to the present, allowing for experimental pursuits of various oddities. I think that connects with the earlier discussion about non-narrative and experimental themes. Within a short duration, creating animations that are strange and lead to a memorable pleasure, as Mizue-san puts it, is something I sense.
I have many questions about Mizue-san's works, and I’m curious if he has considered themes like quantum mechanics or Buddhist motifs.
One thing that caught my attention was in the interview about 'ETERNTY', where he mentioned the potential of abstract animation to explore the idea of the spirit being liberated from the body, especially in longer formats. I’d love to delve deeper into that.
Creating Non-Narrative Works That Keep You Awake for 20 Minutes
Mizue Mirai
Yes. Also, 'ETERNITY' is 21 minutes long. Most of the animations I’ve created so far are around 3 to 6 minutes. In that case, I can structure the piece around the buildup of a single song. But when it comes to 20 minutes, I have to think about how to structure the music as well.
There are abstract animations that last 20 minutes. At film festivals, you can find experimental programs with works that just have continuous blinking for 20 minutes. They can be quite pleasant, and you might end up dozing off. But the challenge is how to create a non-narrative piece that keeps you awake for 20 minutes. I thought about making something that feels like a ride, where you’re moving through something from a viewer's perspective. So, in 'ETERNITY', the camera moves through tunnels, along grooves, and inside spherical mandalas.
In my previous works, there were many motifs on screen, creating a busy composition. This time, the busy elements overflow in the space, and the camera pushes through them. So, while I’m sitting in a cinema seat, I want to create a feeling of moving through the screen, exploring somewhere.
The idea of the spirit separating might resonate with anyone watching a film. When the credits roll, you realize, “I was sitting in a cinema seat,” and then think, “Alright, time to go home.” When your feelings are completely immersed in the film, it feels like your spirit is leaving your body.
Sakuta
When a movie pulls you in that much, the moment you step outside, if it was a superhero film, you feel like you've become a little stronger, right?
Mizue Mirai
That's true. I remember feeling that way a lot when I was in high school, stepping out of the theater. Recently, as an adult, I find myself overthinking things with all sorts of logic when watching movies, and sometimes I realize I'm not really focused on the film.
Sakuta
I used to get so immersed in superhero movies that after watching one, I would fall into the illusion that I could win against anyone who confronted me. Thinking back on that makes me feel a bit nostalgic and bittersweet, haha.
Mizue Mirai
That happens, right? When I was in college, they screened the director's cut of 'E.T.' in theaters, and I remember biking for about 20 minutes to see it. On the way back, I was really pedaling my bike as fast as I could. E.T. rides a bike and flies, you know? I remember shouting "whoa" while biking home in the middle of the night.