Guest and Personality

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Table of Contents

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#01 Begins

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An elementary school student dreaming of becoming a manga artist loved "Doraemon: The Movie"

Sakoda

Yes, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Matsuura

Yes, I am honored to be invited.

Sakoda

Thank you very much. Today, I would like to hear various stories from Matsuura-san, but I have received some topic notes from Matsuura-san in advance—.

Matsuura

Like a mandala... (laughs).

Sakoda

It really is like a mandala, with various episodes from different eras distributed in various places. I received the topic notes, and I thought we could start by discussing stories from elementary school, middle school, and high school, and then talk about events that became the impetus for your current career, as well as what you are currently doing and any concerns you might have. I would also like to hear about the creative philosophy that emerged from that and your current thoughts.

First, I would like to read through the profile I received to explain what kind of career Matsuura-san has walked. Is that alright?

Matsuura

Yes, please.

Guest: Naoki Matsuura (マツウラナオキ)

Active as an animation director, director, and animation creator

Member of the Japan Animation Association

Born in 1982 in Tokyo, currently residing in Kanagawa Prefecture. Graduated from Musashino Art University, Department of Visual Communication in 2006.

After working in production roles at Polycon Pictures, Production I.G, ROBOT, etc., he became independent. He has experience in various video and animation productions, including TV, commercials, music videos, exhibitions, and live visuals. In 2016, he directed the exhibition video for the Japan Pavilion at the Milan Expo, which won a gold medal within the expo. His first commercial animation direction was for the "Marukome Miso Anime Commercial." Since then, he has also worked on storyboarding and directing TV series animations.

In 2016, he conducted crowdfunding for his original short film "Fire Making," raising over 1.7 million yen, which was completed in 2021. He has screened it at events, distributed it online, and submitted it to film festivals, receiving nominations and awards both domestically and internationally.

He is currently directing the TV anime "Liar Liar," which will air in 2023, and is also directing a theatrical animation scheduled for release in 2024.

Sakoda

This sounds... quite busy, doesn't it?

Matsuura

Ah, thanks to that, yes (laughs). I’m doing a lot of different things.

Sakoda

By the way, how do you feel right now? We're approaching autumn in 2023.

Matsuura

Well, there are various things happening in the world, but I hope it becomes peaceful (laughs). That might be a bit too broad of a topic (laughs). So, what should we do? Should we start with stories from childhood, or how things were back then?

Sakoda

People who hear your profile might be curious about "How do you create original works?" or "How does fundraising work?" I think it would be good to first talk about the path you took to get there, and then we can dive into the main dish of that topic in detail.

Also, there are some really interesting episodes in the topic notes, so would it be okay to extract from those and discuss?

Sakoda

Yes, when I was in elementary school, I dreamed of becoming a manga artist, and I was influenced by works like "Doraemon." I think I watched the movies, but the manga version was probably my bible?

Matsuura

Is it the long version? When Fujiko F. Fujio was still alive, there were stories from the movies that were turned into manga, right? I think those were serialized in CoroCoro in parts? They were published as tankobon every time.

Of course, I liked the short episodes too, but there were tankobon of the manga based on the movie, and I collected and read those.

Sakoda

Other works I watched included "Dragon Ball," "Brave Robo," "Akira," and "Ghost in the Shell," among others...

Matsuura

Yes, those are pretty standard, right? In elementary and middle school, it was "Dragon Ball," but even though it wasn't in real-time, my father watched the anime of "Akira" on video, and I thought, "What is this?" The last scene was shocking; I had never seen anything like it. It made me feel sick, and I couldn't eat pizza for a while.

So, I knew of its existence, but I became interested in it due to the shock, and with my limited pocket money, I started buying the tankobon, thinking, "Oh, there are manga like this." From there, I got deeply into "Akira." As I wrote in the topic notes, there was a catchphrase for a screening preview in New York that said "Violent and Beautiful." I thought, "What does that mean? It's violent, but beautiful? But indeed, 'Akira' is like that."

I loved "Doraemon" and had been in a flower garden all along, but I could definitely say that "Violent and Beautiful" was true. It's not just a simple good vs. evil worldview—it's not just "violence is bad," but rather "it's violent but beautiful," and I was really drawn to that. It was quite a turning point for me. I started collecting and reading Otomo's manga from there.

Sakoda

"Doraemon" is surprisingly ironic too, and I think there are things to absorb when you watch it as an adult, but works like "Akira" and others like "Parasyte"...

Matsuura

Yes, "Parasyte" is like that too. "Parasyte" was shocking, really a bible for me. I've read it dozens of times, and there are so many memorable scenes, but there's that moment when Migi fights Gotou and dies once, right? There are various memorable scenes, but there's a part where Shinichi and Migi argue about whether to kill the parasitic organism, and Migi asks Shinichi, "What would you do if our positions were reversed?"

So, Shinichi is like, "Hmm," and he's troubled. Then there's a monologue from Migi that goes, "When I say this, he gets troubled. This is what it means to be human." I thought, "Ah, I see." Humans can imagine standing in someone else's shoes, right? It's a really profound scene that suggests a lot. So, going through those moments, 'Parasyte' is basically a bible for me, even now.

The Story of the Little Person Inside My Stomach: "My Original Experience with Implicit Understanding"

Sakoda

From the scenes that left an impression on me in Matsuura's 'Parasyte,' I can really feel the underlying message. For example, I think it was in 'Hito Shizuku' where it talked about a boy who accepts the world's implicit agreements, and there was something about "my original experience with implicit understanding" written in the book.

Matsuura

Ah, yes. Oh, you read that too? I'm honored.

Sakoda

That was incredibly interesting. I mean, how should I put it? It might sound a bit complicated, but within the trend of interpreting the world deductively, there are often moments where we stop thinking, like, "Well, there’s this premise, right?" Humans tend to be somewhat poisoned by that way of thinking, and while there might not be an antithesis to it, I wondered if there was a motif behind it. Migi observes humans from a distance and thinks, "Oh, so this is how humans think." It’s interesting because society presents things to us as if they are obvious, yet I wonder why we only see them head-on.

The way Matsuura described "the world's implicit agreements" in the book was quite fascinating, and I resonate with that theme a lot. I often think about why people say we should think this way. So, in 'Parasyte,' the fact that there’s an alien like Migi, who comes from a completely different culture, custom, and value system, yet follows a completely different thought process towards the same goal is incredibly interesting.

So, I feel like that motif has always been alive in Matsuura's works, and that's something I thought about while listening to the discussion on 'Parasyte.'

Matsuura

You’ve analyzed it very deeply. Yes, since you mentioned my graduation project, the original experience was based on a picture book I read in kindergarten. It was about how there are little people inside the human body who clean up food. I really believed that there were little people.

Then, when I was in elementary school, around second or third grade, I casually asked my mom, who was cooking in the kitchen, "Oh, by the way, those little people really exist, right?" and she casually replied, "Oh, that’s a lie." That was the original experience for 'Hito Shizuku,' but I feel like there are many such moments. At that time, I didn’t feel like, "Oh, I was deceived," or "Adults lied to me," but rather, it felt like pieces were smoothly falling into place in my mind.

To put it more simply, it’s like Santa Claus, right? I really believed in him and even argued with friends about it (laughs). But realistically, parents give children dreams. There’s no set time when someone has to tell the truth, but everyone gradually realizes, "Oh, that was my dad or mom doing that, they were lying to me." The change in heart during that time is interesting, and it became the starting point or motif for my graduation project.

Sakoda

That change in heart is something everyone feels as an original experience, but I feel like not many people try to pin down that emotion and express it. It’s something that flows quietly, like, "Oh, I see."

Matsuura

Yes, it’s a story that could easily end with, "Well, that’s just how it is."

Sakoda

There’s a puzzle of "humans adapting to society," and pieces keep falling from above to complete that puzzle. That’s how I interpret it in my own way, but adults casually state the "truths of society" without any innocence.

By the way, was this book sold at Comiket when Matsuura created 'Hizukuri'?

Matsuura

Oh no, that was made as a crowdfunding reward, so I didn’t sell it. I think I only made about 150 copies. And now, more than half of them are still in stock with me... (laughs).

Sakoda

No, this is an incredibly interesting book, and I hope it gets out into the world.

Matsuura

Well, I was thinking that if I get the chance, I might sell it, but there’s still plenty of stock in my closet.

A Middle School Student Inspired by Osamu Tezuka's Buddha

Sakoda

What you just talked about was the story of the little person inside Naoki Matsuura's experience regarding tacit understanding, and when this episode is narrated, the written text also paints a vivid picture. For example, "My mother casually said, 'That's a lie,' and continued cooking with a rhythmic 'ton ton ton'." I think this 'ton ton ton' and the motif of daily life connects to other works by Matsuura, and of course to 'Fire Making,' which we will discuss later, and it's very impressive.

The sound of that, for me, is also reminiscent of my mother chopping vegetables in the kitchen with a 'ton ton ton' sound, which symbolizes my childhood experience. I find this expression really interesting.

Matsuura

Well, my friends and my wife helped edit that text. I wrote the original text quickly, aiming to make it interesting to read, but fundamentally, it's a product of their hard work in structuring it.

Sakoda

It's really good writing, so if there's another opportunity to share it, I hope everyone gets to read it. Sorry, as expected, we started talking about middle school and ended up in the present...

Matsuura

Ah, we drifted into discussing the works, didn't we? (laughs)

Sakoda

Well, that's fine too, but I hope we can return to it. In middle school, works like 'AKIRA' and 'Parasyte' became my bibles, and Osamu Tezuka's 'Buddha' was added to that mix.

Matsuura

'Buddha' was shocking, wasn't it? Middle school students think about all sorts of things.

Sakoda

I was pretty spaced out, though. (laughs)

Matsuura

Oh, really? (laughs) Neither my father nor mother had any specific religion, so we didn't have that kind of thing, but we had 'Buddha' at home, and I started reading it casually. I don't remember which volume it was, but there’s a scene where it’s realized that God exists within people's hearts, and I really remember that. I thought, "Oh, right, God is in our hearts." At that time, I was so moved that I told my friends on the baseball team, "God is in people's hearts," and they just said, "Hmm," with a pretty lukewarm reaction, and I thought, "Oh? Does everyone not think about these things?" So I didn't have many friends to talk about that with.

Sakoda

Well, that's how middle schoolers are. (laughs)

Matsuura

So I think people saw me as a weird kid from the outside.

Sakoda

That period varies by generation, but for me, I think it was around 'Dragon Ball' and 'Slam Dunk.' You can learn about life and various things from those works, but you can receive something a bit more profound when you encounter manga like 'Parasyte,' 'Buddha,' and 'AKIRA.'

Matsuura

That's right. Even when you read 'AKIRA' for the first time, you don't understand anything at all. They are currently holding a cel art exhibition, and I went to see it the other day, and I was revisiting the movie and the manga again, and what is depicted there is indeed the truth.

Does the information density of the anime 'AKIRA' connect to today's anime production?

Sakoda

Many of the guests on this podcast are people who create anime, and most of them grew up watching manga. Reflecting on the earlier discussion about 'AKIRA,' when you first encountered 'AKIRA,' was it the anime or the manga?

Matsuura

It was the anime first, the movie version.

Sakoda

I think the impact when it became an animated medium was incredible. Even if you were someone who originally read the manga and engaged with the work, the amount of information that increases when it becomes animated is just amazing, right? So, I think that must have been really surprising and shocking for many people.

And I wonder if that original experience is what brought Matsura-san here as someone who creates anime. Do you think it relates to the fact that Matsura-san is now making anime instead of manga?

Matsura

It’s probably the music of Geinoh Yamashirogumi, right? That’s a big one. It’s completely incomprehensible, isn’t it? Like, what is this? (laughs)

Back then, I really bought soundtracks with my limited allowance, and I remember reading interviews where Otomo-san talked about his thoughts and how he approached things. Initially, Otomo-san wanted to ask Geinoh Yamashirogumi to use music from past works, and when he went to negotiate, the people from Geinoh Yamashirogumi were also huge fans of ‘AKIRA’ and had read it.

The idea was not “please make a soundtrack after the movie is done,” but rather “first, the music of ‘AKIRA’ exists, and then there’s the animated film, and we’d like to use the original music.” I thought, “Ah, I see.” I learned how to negotiate with musicians here. The impact of music like “Rasse Rasse Ra” in a futuristic city is significant. I later found out that after watching ‘AKIRA,’ I learned about ‘Blade Runner,’ and some people who saw ‘Blade Runner’ first might criticize ‘AKIRA’ as a copy or a second-rate version, but for me, ‘AKIRA’ came first.

That music is uniquely ‘AKIRA,’ isn’t it? The combination of that music with the futuristic visual background is one of the impactful aspects of ‘AKIRA.’ Even when fighting the Joker in ‘Crown,’ there are lots of human-like voices mixed in, and that was really shocking. It made me think, “Oh, you can do this,” and “There are works like this.” So, in that sense, animation, which can combine music and sound, is way more impressive than just drawing pictures with paper and pen. That was definitely a foundational experience for me.

Sakoda

Yes, exactly. I wanted to talk about an episode with Satoshi Kon later, as he also had Susumu Hirasawa, who created that world view. Having been exposed to such works, it feels like Matsura-san is being guided towards creating in the medium of animation.

So, with that said, we just jumped through time a bit to discuss the self-produced anime Matsura-san is working on. As we move into the latter half, I’d like to introduce a song.

Matsura

Yes. It’s a song called “Nagi-ganui” by a bassist named Anizo. I heard it being played on the streets of Shinjuku when I was a student, and I decided to use it for my graduation project, and I got his permission to use it. So, please enjoy.

The foundational experience of ‘Tsuki-tachi no Asa’ and thoughts from being a telephone operator

Sakoda

It’s Anizo’s song, but did you feel a strong connection to the guitar melody when you heard it on the street?

Matsura

Ah, yes. This is also a foundational experience from my middle school days. A friend from the brass band told me, “All your musical talent is going into your art, so you can’t do music.” Well, she said it half-jokingly, but I didn’t play music myself. However, like the relationship between Geinoh Yamashirogumi and Otomo-san, I started to listen more attentively.

Anizo was playing at the East Exit of Shinjuku, in front of the old Gap store, and the moment I heard him, I thought, “Oh, this is the person.” After he finished, I approached him. At that time, I was still a student and said, “I’m a student using video and animation, would you mind if I used your song?” We talked right there, and he said, “Oh, that’s totally fine. Go ahead.”

Sakoda

So, he provided music for the work ‘Tsuki-tachi no Asa’ and another work called ‘Hito Shizuku,’ right?

Matsura

Yes, that’s right. They are different songs by Anizo, but I used them. I listened to them continuously while working on the production.

Sakoda

After all, for Matsuura-san, music seems to be a significant essence in expanding and creating works, as seen in the later example of 'Fire Making'.

Matsuura

That's right. My beloved Oshii-san also says, "Half of a movie is music."

Sakoda

Exactly. This is true for both Oshii-san's story and Kon-san's story, but when talking about Matsuura-san's life, there are various encounters with different people, and I really want to hear how Matsuura-san has interpreted and digested their words.

What I see in Matsuura-san is a strong appreciation for encounters and connections with people. When creating works, it's not just about the finished product, but also the stories and experiences shared with those who participated, and I think it's wonderful that these are well-documented and expressed in some form of writing.

Matsuura

Ah, I'm honored. Thank you.

Sakoda

Of course, anime involves many people, and while it's impossible to grasp everyone involved in every part, I really feel that Matsuura-san wants to shine a spotlight on those who have worked alongside and supported him.

The works 'The Morning of the Moons' and 'A Drop of Water' are from Matsuura-san's university days, and I think there are many people who struggle to create works during that time. What motivated you during that period?

Matsuura

Motivation... Well, I think it was about showing something I found interesting and saying, "Isn't this interesting? What do you think?" It feels a bit like showing off a toy. That’s pretty much how my current work feels too. There are times when I think, "I might be the only one in the universe who knows this." When I realize that, I might say to someone, "Hey, I noticed this and felt this way about it, what do you think?" Sometimes they respond with, "Yeah, that's good," and other times they might say, "Oh, I noticed that too." There are also times when I encounter other creators or works and think, "Oh, this person noticed the same thing as me." I guess that's my motivation?

Sakoda

Usually, when I have something that only I know or a new idea that comes from within me, the easiest way to express it is often through "words." I think the sheer number of ways to express something is overwhelmingly greater with "words," but there are moments when putting something into words suddenly lowers its resolution. I believe that by translating that into anime, art, or manga, I can express it to the world while maintaining as much of that resolution as possible. From that perspective, I think the medium of anime makes it easier to keep that motivation to show off.

Matsuura

There's a story from when I was working part-time as a phone operator. At that time, the pay was good, and it was during the ADSL internet era. I was making calls to sell things, and since many art students are shy, I had a motivation to develop my talk skills. While working there, I was lined up in a call center, making calls, but most of the time, no one would connect. So, I would keep dialing and hanging up, and during that process, I started to wonder, "Where is this ringing sound coming from?" It created a strange sensation.

That experience of "constantly making calls and not connecting" made me feel like I was floating alone in a vast universe as I listened to that sound. I thought, "This sensation would look beautiful and interesting if I turned it into a visual," which led to the creation of 'The Morning of the Moons' in my third year of university.

Sakoda

But that's exactly it. Even if you try hard to verbalize a fleeting, elusive moment, it often feels "off," and the resolution drops significantly, making it feel completely wrong. However, when you can turn it into anime or place it on a timeline, I can imagine that you can get much closer to that feeling.

As a video producer, I don't draw myself, so I think it's great for those who can output their intuition or images directly.