Guest and Personality

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Overall Table of Contents

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#03 Begins

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About "Fire Making"

Sakoda

This is a brief recap of what we've covered so far, mainly listening to stories about the people Naoki Matsuura met while working at various companies and locations after he got a job. Through hearing stories about Satoshi Kon and Mamoru Oshii, I feel like I can see a high-resolution image of Matsuura's current vision as a director. I believe that through many encounters, both good and bad, he has reached the point where he is currently working on theatrical directorial projects and directing a TV anime series.

In the realm of independent production, a work titled "Fire Making" has been created, and I believe it has been successfully completed after going through crowdfunding. However, there are questions about how it will be released, so I would like to ask about that as well as various episodes related to "Fire Making."

I also have a project that I used crowdfunding for as a clue for my work. How about you? We could start with discussing the work itself, or perhaps talk about how the crowdfunding experience was? What do you think would be a good starting point, Matsura-san?

Matsura

Well, let's talk about the work.

Sakoda

By the way, is it still in a state where no one can see it yet?

Matsura

No, that's right.

Sakoda

I see. For those who are listening and haven't seen it yet, if there comes a time when it can be viewed, I think it would be great for them to check it out, as their perceptions might change. This is about a scissor craftsman—scissor blacksmith. The theme is also discussed in the book created during the crowdfunding for "Fire Making," and while I might be putting it in a rough way, I think it's a really profound theme. I believe there will be a lot of opinions about this.

It's written in the book, but could you share again from your perspective, Matsura-san, what this theme was about and what you wanted to convey? Earlier, you mentioned, "Not everything I want to convey is essential," but could you elaborate on what you wanted to express with "Fire Making" and why you chose this theme?

Matsura

Well, to explain to those who are new, there is a scissor blacksmith named Sasuke in Sakai City, Osaka. He has been working since the late Edo period, and currently, the fifth generation, Yasuhiro Hirakawa, is the craftsman. The opportunity to meet him came when a friend from university, who was into crafts, was working at Sasuke's place, supporting various tasks around him.

So, I had a chance to contact that friend, Aoi-chan, and when I heard she was working there, I visited out of pure curiosity. I got to touch the scissors for the first time, and their cutting ability was impressively heavy yet incredibly soft. I was so moved by that cutting quality that I thought, "It would be great to create an animation focusing on craftsmen like this," and that was the trigger, yes.

Sakoda

So, he specializes in scissors, right?

Matsura

He also makes knives, and various small items like paperweights and candlesticks using iron and steel. Originally, he was a scissor blacksmith. If we trace back further, his ancestors ran a seafood wholesaler called Sumiyoshi-ya, which sold various goods by boat. They used to make guns and swords, but at some point, they decided to make scissors. That's how Sasuke was founded as a scissor blacksmith, as I understand it.

Sakoda

I see. Sakai is indeed a merchant city. Regarding "Fire Making," we can delve into the story of the blacksmith that serves as the motif in the work, or we could discuss the production theory that we haven't talked about yet. I think it would be nice to have a more anime-like discussion. For now, focusing on the blacksmith, when it comes to the animation production, the depiction of the blacksmithing scene is truly remarkable.

Matsura

Ah, yes, thank you.

Sakoda

That scene is really different in terms of how it was animated. I think it has a lot of value as a record. In terms of passing down knowledge, it clearly depicts how these techniques existed. The intense and solid expressions that can be conveyed through animation and visual media, the heat and hardness, can be articulated well with words, but when combined with sound and the incredibly detailed and rich animation, it communicates instantly.

Matsura

I'm glad to hear that; we worked hard on it.

Sakoda

I believe you put a lot of effort into everything, but I wonder if you have any particular memories associated with that scene.

Matsura

Well, yes. There’s so much to talk about regarding "Fire Making" (laughs) that it’s hard to summarize, but regarding that scene, while there are some exaggerated elements, I was also drawing it myself, especially the final effects. Since I was the sole producer and director for this work, I managed all the finances, work, and data by myself. I thought about maintaining a style of outsourcing to friends and acquaintances, but in the end, I realized I had to draw it myself, so I did.

Sakoda

I guess it's the scene that I was able to refine to a point where I was satisfied with it.

Matsuura

That's right. It took a lot of time to decide, "Let's go with this" for the part I was really struggling with. That part, you know.

Sakoda

It's common to not know where to end, right?

Matsuura

Yeah, I couldn't see the end. I know this isn't the best way to put it, but you can keep extending it indefinitely, saying, "Sorry, can I have a little more time?" "Please wait." to the supporters. At first, we said, "We'll finish by the end of 2017," but it ended up being a full three years from there. We kept extending it, saying "Sorry" while working on it.

There were various reasons for the delays, but I felt that we had to make sure that the time we took was worth it. After finishing the project and submitting it to film festivals, I had many moments of realization, thinking, "I see." I can't fully express it; there are so many angles to discuss. I just don't know where to start.

Sakoda

If I simply ask what I want to know, it's not just about the animation work; what I found interesting about this project was the way UQiYO participated. I think it's a very interesting and rational way to get involved.

Talking about 'AKIRA' and Satoshi Kon in the first half, I feel like it's a continuous conversation, but music is also a main character, and I hope we can create something that resonates more deeply with the work.

Matsuura

I won't go into details since you can look it up, but UQiYO has disbanded now. The central member, Yuqi, is currently active in a duo with Shinnosuke Mitsushima. Under a different artist name, they are now writing and composing music. They've continued with music, and I've connected with them on Facebook and keep an eye on their activities.

The trigger was the song "TWiLiGHT" when they were active as UQiYO. I first heard it on the radio, and I fell in love with it the moment I listened to it, just like Brother Kura. At that moment, I thought, "Oh, this person is trying to go to the same world as me." I felt that intuitively and started going to their live shows. I was following their activities as a listener.

The MV for "TWiLiGHT" is also really wonderful. I even barged into the office of the director, Tsuge, and asked a lot of questions like, "How did you make this?" I interviewed him for about one or two hours. I asked all sorts of things like, "Where did you shoot this?" "How did you cast this?" "How did you handle the costumes?" and learned a lot.

What I learned from that interview stuck with me, and when I decided to create "Hizukuri," I thought, "These people would definitely fit." It started with a long email where I introduced myself and said, "I'm crowdfunding to create this independent work, and I want to make something like this." I asked, "Would you create music for it?" and that's how our relationship began.

Sakoda

In Yuqi's interview with UQiYO, they mentioned receiving a passionate message. I thought it would be fun to work together, but I also think that even if you really want to collaborate, it can be hard to take that first step. They mentioned that it's rare to receive emails like that. There's often a feeling that it might not work out. Did Yuqi go with you to Sasuke?

Matsuura

Yes, we recorded some sounds and talked there. As a surprise, we invited our friend Aoi and had dinner together. At that time, UQiYO was indie, but there was a music company producer who we talked to and exchanged opinions with. During the crowdfunding period, I aligned it with their nationwide tour, saying I would do crowdfunding. They promoted it during the live MC, and I printed flyers to place at the booth. We traveled around the country together, handing out flyers. It was a lot of fun.

Sakoda

I think that's enviable. I want to travel around the country with artists when I create my next work.

Matsuura

It’s a lot of fun.

Sakoda

In visual works, music is a strong element, including sound effects, voice actors' voices, music, and various sounds can be incorporated, so I think it's one of the main characters. It would be great if we could all work together on the project, but when creating commercial works, many aspects are determined by circumstances.

Matsuura

Well, yes.

Sakoda

So, if we could collaborate like that, you know, like Miyazaki-san and Hisaishi-san. That would be ideal, wouldn’t it? It’s great when such matching happens. No, no, let’s take a moment to listen to a song by UQiYO that we’ve been discussing.

Matsuura

Yes, this is the theme song 'Dry Dry Try' created by UQiYO for my short animation work 'Fire Making'. Please listen.

Let’s Talk About Works and Physicality Based on 'Fire Making'

Sakoda

Yes, what you just heard was 'Dry Dry Try' by UQiYO.

Matsuura

That’s right, I initially paid to have it made. They really resonated with the theme of the work, and Yuqi wrote the lyrics reflecting the protagonist's feelings.

Sakoda

At what stage of the process did Yuqi start creating the song?

Matsuura

Ah, I don’t think there was a storyboard yet. Initially, I had a plot that was close to a completed script. After that, I drew a lot of key visuals and sketches, showing everything I could to convey the style and world view, like adding ingredients to a simmering soup.

Sakoda

I see. How much information was easier for you, Yuqi, or UQiYO to work with?

Matsuura

I can’t say for sure if it was easier, but since they hadn’t been involved in animation or video at such a deep level before, they seemed to enjoy it quite a bit.

Sakoda

That’s true. The people who create music might not understand animation as we might not understand music, but we both recognize that these are media with significant synergy, so there should be a good compromise or collaboration.

Matsuura

Exactly. And, yes, the concept of UQiYO, or Yuqi’s activities, aligned very well with my values and those of 'Fire Making'. However, I felt like I borrowed their fame. I went on tour with them. Even though I’m involved in animation, I’m relatively unknown, so they took me along to their live shows. I handed out flyers and did some grassroots promotion, and many people who came as UQiYO fans ended up supporting me as well.

Sakoda

I think many fans of music also engage with anime, so it’s interesting to reach a different cluster of people.

Continuing from here, I’d like to talk about the friends Matsuura-san has met during his production process. Yes, while discussing that, I also want to touch on the topic of works and physicality, using 'Fire Making' as a theme. It feels like a work that allows one to sense where physicality leads.

Whether it’s the hardness of iron or the heat of flames, there’s a strong emphasis on the physicality of these various elements, so what does physicality mean to you, Matsuura-san?

Matsuura

Ah, this will also take about 2 hours, plus another 2 hours, haha. Well, where should I start? Overall, in today's world, it seems like we are heavily reliant on visual and auditory senses, right?

I'm at home, sitting in front of my computer in my room, and essentially, life is almost entirely sustained by our eyes and ears. Of course, the impact of visual information on our brains is significant, and I believe this has been scientifically proven. However, there are certainly things that get overlooked in that process. And there is a sense of crisis regarding this. What we can see and hear is not the essence of the world, yet what is captured in that way takes shape and is propagated through media.

When I talk to those who haven't seen it, the world of "fire-making" was set up on stage with that kind of awareness. In other words, it contrasts a world where scientific civilization has developed extraordinarily with a more local culture and civilization that still relies on analog methods, like windmills or wind power.

Speaking of the loss of the body, works like "AKIRA" and Mamoru Oshii's "Ghost in the Shell" also reflect this. There is a sense of crisis regarding what is being lost, and an instinctive desire to pick up on what is falling through the cracks. That was my motivation, influenced by social conditions and external pressures. Additionally, from that external pressure, we can discuss various social issues, but overwhelmingly, it comes down to the sharpness of scissors, doesn't it? The feeling I had when I first met Sasuke and held the scissors, cutting with a snap, is something that can only be born between the person holding it and that object.

Sasuke SASUKE, the Scissor Blacksmith in Osaka, Sakai

When I encountered that sharpness, it’s a bit strange to say, but the Sasuke in front of me is creating it, yet behind that, there are ancestors and predecessors, the history of the techniques that have been developed, and even more so, the vast time and space of the universe and the Earth’s birth. All of that has condensed into this tiny point, and I felt like I was receiving it.

It’s amazing how something can give people this kind of sensation. And reflecting on my own work, I wondered if I am able to leave behind such sensations for others, and I couldn't confidently say yes. I thought about how Sasuke's scissors have been passed down for 150 years, now in the fifth generation. So, when I think about whether what I'm creating in animation or video will still exist 150 years from now, I doubt it will. I thought, "Ah, then I want to create something that will last for 150 years, not just 10 or 20 years."

To figure out how to create that, I should observe what has lasted for 150 years. The scissors in front of me were made by a craftsman who has been doing this for 150 years, and now they are in my hands. I want to preserve the beauty of that sharpness. I want to hold onto the weight, sharpness, and beauty that I feel. That was the starting point for everything.

Sakoda

Yeah. I really love talking about this, so I have a lot of questions and thoughts I want to add. First, the last part you mentioned is a bit of a lighter topic, but I feel that people tend to place a high value on things that endure. If we’re going to do something, there’s a desire to create something that lasts.

When I have the opportunity to create commercials or animations, it’s not about whether the media is good or bad; it’s just my perspective. However, I felt a sense of emptiness in creating something that won’t last beyond three months. In the commercial industry, it’s common for things to become unviewable due to talent contracts and other issues after about three months.

So, when I felt the emptiness of creating something that would almost permanently disappear three months later, I wanted to create something that would last. That’s when I started to focus more on making music videos or films, as they seem to have a better chance of enduring. I think that feeling is quite profound.

As for the approach, I think focusing on physicality and what has endured is a great idea. I currently live in Kyoto, and when I visit shrines, I walk on gravel paths. The sensation under my feet and the sounds I hear connect me to the people of the past. I’m just thinking logically, but perhaps from a quantum physics perspective, we might really be connected. However, I don’t understand those complicated things, so I’m just sharing my sensory experience. The sound, the feeling under my feet, and the scenery I see now likely resemble what was there 100 or 200 years ago, especially in Kyoto, where that possibility is clearly high. I feel a connection in that sense.

So, when cutting something with scissors, the feedback to the body is probably the same for people from 100 years ago, 100 years in the future, 200 years ago, and 200 years in the future. It’s definitely an act that connects us to the past and future. Broadly speaking, the people of 100 years from now, the people of today, and I are all the same. Considering that, there are many hints in the body, and as long as humans don’t go extinct, the structure of our bodies will likely remain unchanged. So, I was thinking about that while listening.

Matsuura

That’s right. It’s mysterious, isn’t it? I didn’t create it because I wanted to; it just happened to come to me. I encountered it by chance, and I want to leave something behind. I feel like I have to give back or leave something. In work, it’s a straightforward exchange: “I do this, and I get paid this much.” But I don’t have a specific religion, and I don’t know about gods or the universe, but I feel like something has come down to me, and I want to record my feelings as a mark in history.

Sakoda

That’s really true. The feeling of using sharp scissors is just a pleasant sensation.

Matsuura

And I have a pretty cool episode related to this. I have many mentors from university, but there’s a teacher named Oda who used to be a sound director at NHK. The friend who worked with Sasuke, Aoi, I met through that teacher.

When Aoi and I were doing crowdfunding for "fire-making," I was having tea with Oda-sensei, and we were discussing it before the crowdfunding started. I said, “I’m thinking of doing this. What do you think?” He responded, “That sounds great!” Then Oda-sensei said, “You cut to truly unite, right? Matsuura-kun, let’s go with that feeling.” I thought that phrase was really beautiful.

When I was having tea with Aoi, I mentioned that I had dinner with Oda-sensei recently, and he said, “You cut to truly unite, right? Let’s go with that feeling.” When I said that, Aoi suddenly burst into tears. Until then, he had been smiling and chatting normally, but he started crying and said, “Ah, that’s true,” while laughing and saying, “Oda-sensei is amazing.” Oda-sensei is now in his mid-80s and is getting older, so it’s not easy to meet him, but he’s still healthy and alive. That was a really cool remark from such a wonderful teacher.

I think of cutting tools like scissors as things that separate, but it's not about that; it's about cutting to become one. I find that expression really cool. And well, this story itself is about the protagonist having unresolved feelings with his father and then losing him to death. I wanted to use the metaphor of meeting Sasuke in the story and having the broken scissors repaired to symbolize the restoration of the relationship with his father. To add more, I personally had some unresolved feelings with my father and went through a period where we couldn't meet casually. So, there was also a personal wish to repair my relationship with my father based on that experience.

Sakoda

Yeah, yeah, I feel like if I were to layer my thoughts on the wonderful words of Mr. Oda right now, it might come off as clumsy, so it might be better to leave it as is. But it's quite a Buddhist nuance, so the act of dividing into two, once something becomes two, no matter how you interpret it, for example, when you split yourself into two to understand yourself better, in that Buddhist motif, it suggests that "to define myself, I must consider all the non-me aspects of myself." In other words, if it's not relative, you can't recognize yourself no matter how far you go, I think that's the essence of it.

In other words, without a comparative reference, you can't observe anything, so it's about creating a comparative reference. By splitting into two, you can recognize that what was once one was indeed one. And all those precious feelings, by being separated, create a comparative reference that makes them precious. If I put it into words, it might sound cheap, but I think that, for me, working in a scissor forge, if I were to define it with such motifs or expressions, it would definitely stir up strong emotions. It's a really stylish and nice episode that adds another wonderful feeling to what I'm doing.

Matsuura

That's right. Mr. Oda is really cool; I love him.

It's better to have more hearts that feel beauty than to have more beautiful things.

Sakoda

But, as I listen to the episode about "making fire," I hope to create a flow that can close with the idea that my current situation is a result of various encounters with people. However, I want to talk more about the members and friends, so I hope to have a second round of discussions at some opportunity.

Matsuura

Oh, anytime.

Sakoda

Yeah, there are really a lot of people. I want to hear about Kappi too.

Matsuura

Oh, Kappi, right? I want to talk about Kappi too. He's become way more famous than me, and I'm looking forward to it.

Sakoda

Yeah, crowdfunding really requires strong promotional marketing skills, and that's where Kappi shines.

Matsuura

Ah, that's right. To explain briefly, at that time, I was still serializing "Left-Handed Ellen" and just starting to become a popular manga artist, so I thought I could borrow some of that recognition and casually asked him, "Could you help me out?" He suggested, "Oh, it might be interesting to write a story where Matsuura appears in Ellen." I thought, "Oh, that's a good idea," and we talked over tea, and he wrote it. When that came out, the access numbers shot up dramatically. And from there, more supporters came in, and it felt like we got a boost.

Sakoda

Wow, that's great. That's really what crowdfunding is about.

Matsuura

I'm really grateful for that.

Sakoda

I also want to talk about Funakakushi and Nakamura. Funakakushi has been making lo-fi hip hop videos for the past couple of years.

Matsuura

Oh, that one directed by Youjiro Arai.

Sakoda

He's been doing it, and he's really provided some amazing background art.

Matsuura

He's amazing too, right?

Sakoda

Yeah. He lives in Kagawa, and he has a strong desire to do something for his hometown.

Matsuura

I visited once, and it's such a wonderful place.

Sakoda

So, if there's anything you feel you haven't talked enough about, please share.

Matsuura

Things I haven't talked enough about... Well, if I tried to cover everything, it would take as long as my life. So, let's see... If I may say something a bit more serious and assertive, regarding the anime industry and various social structure issues... Well, there are financial problems and business issues, but at the root of it all, I think there's a curiosity, like how I find Sasuke's scissors interesting. I don't know if I can call it curiosity, but it's important to have a heart that receives things, and the feeling of reacting with "Oh, that's interesting."

Oh, and let me share another episode. There's a designer I deeply admire, Yoshitetsu Nishimura, who does wonderful activities. He once wrote on his blog about a beautiful sunset in the mountains. While driving during sunset, he stopped to gaze at the stunning view. He noticed a few others who also got out of their cars to stop and watch the sunset. They spent time watching the sun sink below the horizon, and once it disappeared, they all returned to their cars and drove away... He wrote about that experience on his blog.

He mentioned something like, "Isn't it more important to increase the hearts that feel beauty rather than just increasing beautiful things?" I thought, "Wow, that's a really good point." I tend to think about creating one project after another, constantly producing and manufacturing things, but just watching the sunset sink and thinking, "Oh, that's beautiful," is also a form of creativity. I believe that the heart that feels beauty is beautiful in itself. I want my works to evoke that feeling of watching a sunset and thinking, "Oh, that's beautiful." With that wish and prayer, I created my works, and I'm working hard to make my current projects reflect that.

Sakoda

So, if we can see the work you're currently putting effort into in a movie in 2024...

Matsuura

Well, if everything goes well next year (laughs). This is a project with a good budget, so I don't think there will be delays like crowdfunding issues. But, you know, there are various problems every day. Today, I had a long meeting with the main staff, discussing "let's do this and that," and we had our share of struggles. But at the core, it's about that feeling of beauty and love, though using the word "love" might not capture everything. In the end, we can only move forward with that love, beauty, and the feeling of "this is good." Money and time are important, but so are the environment and conditions... There are many factors like how this company operates or how the staff is, but fundamentally, I think it's enough to just look at the sunset sinking and think, "Oh, that's beautiful." If you have that heart, I think that's good enough. I hope for a world like that, or at least I think so. Maybe that sounds a bit sentimental.

Sakoda

No, no, but you know, that last story is something that you can only understand at the right moment. If you hear what Matsuura-san just said at a time when you can't grasp its meaning, it won't resonate at all. I think it's something that needs to be gently absorbed into the heart, and eventually, you'll feel it when the time is right. Thank you for sharing such a wonderful story.

Matsuura

Ah, thank you for listening.

Sakoda

But you know, I'm surprised that a director creating theatrical works with various capital involved can share such an emotional story in the midst of it all. It's quite astonishing.

Matsuura

Well, I think I'm pretty thick-skinned. Plus, I'm insensitive, and no matter how unpleasant things get, I forget them after a good night's sleep (laughs). I try not to let stress build up. Once I start talking about unpleasant things, it never ends. So, I don't have time for that; life is only once.

In that case, if I'm always enjoying myself, the people who engage with me will have fun too. Just like how I admire Oshii-san. If he says something, then it must be true. Everyone was working together in a really good atmosphere. As a director, I want to create a positive environment on set. I want it to be a comfortable place.

Sakoda

This might connect back a bit, but I feel that directors who have experience shooting live-action films have a certain physicality. Of course, this is just something I've heard, but I think there are negative aspects to it as well. The sports-like atmosphere can have its hard parts, especially in building human relationships.

However, I believe that if both you and the other person can smile, that's all that matters. It's not something that can be explained in words; it's something you feel physically. I might not know for sure, but since Oshii-san has shot a lot of live-action, I wonder if he naturally embodies that physicality and has learned to stay cheerful?

Matsuura

That's right. I've never seen you looking frustrated. You always seem to be having fun, Oshii-san. It's quite enviable.

Sakoda

I think there are many benefits to digital—especially with the digitization of anime—but on the downside, I feel that the sense of people creating things, the connection between flesh-and-blood individuals, can become diluted. It’s just you facing a glowing screen, and you only feel the physicality of things being created that way. Especially when working remotely. So while there’s a lot of efficiency in that, it can also create a production environment where it becomes difficult to stay in a good mood. I think about that a lot. In the midst of all this, Matsuura-san, I would be really happy if you could create your upcoming work for next year with a cheerful spirit.

Matsuura

Yes, I will do my best.

Sakoda

Well, we’ve had a long time to hear various things today, but I hope you can come back again sometime, maybe around 2024 when your work is released, and we can talk again. Yes. Thank you for coming, Naoki Matsuura, and for sharing your thoughts with us today. Thank you very much.

Matsuura

Thank you very much.